Bertrand

Welcome to Tech Deciphered, Episode 65. This episode will be a bit different from the usual. This time we’ll be talking about retro technology, minimal technology, and digital detox. Some of you might know that Nino and I are gadget fans who are not working in technology by mistake. We love all these gadgets, but at the same time, I guess once in a while, we have to think back, is it too much?

What should we do about it? Is there a way to manage our tech addiction? What we will see is that there has been a new trend of retro technology, gadgets, minimal tech options, and the growth of digital detox in general. New trends are happening because now we are spending so much time in tech that we might think we need to be more careful. Nuno, what’s your take on this?

Nuno

We’ve evolved so much, and we’ve gone so digital that now people want to have physical things from the past. There are a bunch of elements around it. We’re going to talk about cultural drivers to it and some of the pieces that relate, for example, to Gen Zers’ fascination with analog first, and a few other elements of that, and the comeback of some technologies that are different in what they provide. Vinyl comes to four.

A vinyl, a record, if it’s a high fidelity record with the right setup, actually, what you get is a different sound to it. You know, the audio files. You’re an audio file yourself, Bertrand would tell you that. They would say it’s a different perspective, it’s higher fidelity, in effect, that analog method than, for example, a CD or anything that is additional to today.

You could argue maybe digital today can recreate that to the nth degree, but there’s still something to it that’s quite special. But maybe just as an opening frame, I feel it’s important to put it in perspective. I think we are here today because of a variety of reasons, because of cultural elements of what we’re seeing, because of design.

People have an appreciation for design and therefore want to go back in the past to well-designed devices and other things that existed before. Also, they want to do it because they want to disconnect from the world. We’ll talk about digital detoxing later on. We’re too connected today because of our mobile phones, because we all have these things with us.

We’ll spend a little bit of time on that as well. Fascinating times where we’re so advanced that we want to go back, and some of these niches are becoming very large. As we will discuss. Some of the numbers are actually pretty vague. We thought it would be cool to do it, and we haven’t done a gadget thing in a long time.

You said we are going in a different direction. But this is how tech deciphered started. We started with gadgets at the end of each episode. Going through news and gadgets. It’s back to the roots of tech decipher. That’s how I see it.

Bertrand

It’s back to the roots. But remind me, did we ever do a full episode just on gadgets?

Nuno

I think we may have actually, at some point in time, we should go back. If you’re listening to us, you know, shoot us a note. Just tell us. I think we have at the beginning.

Bertrand

Okay, you’re right. Maybe we can start with retro tech first. Why do we go with retro tech? I guess first, some cultural drivers are looking for nostalgia for authenticity. It’s some sort of counterculture statement, maybe. Especially when you see the ubiquity of smartphones, of tablets, of computers. You want to have something in your pocket, on your desk that is different.

Maybe there is also a part around slowing down mindfulness. When you think about these days, tech, music, tech video, we have access to nearly everything at once with immediate access. The whole library of every music ever recorded is on the cloud. Same for movies, same for e-books. There is something that you can bring if you go analog. It’s a different approach to collecting stuff, finding stuff, loading stuff, content to finally use it. Have a different approach to life. What’s your take, Nino?

Nuno

Yes, the first fundamental piece for us to talk a little bit about is a lot of the elements that are driving this. I think there’s nostalgia. We want to go back in time, and new generations always have nostalgia. In some ways, the vintage never goes away. It’s a little bit of looking at what your parents were using or how they were communicating or how they were using devices, et cetera, or how your grandparents were using it.

That nostalgia is deeply embedded in the human being. You’re growing up and you’re seeing them using this stuff, and at some point you’re like, I actually would like to go back and have these things in front of me. Secondly, there’s also this notion, a little bit of, call it authenticity. The feeling that if you take, for example, a photo with a film camera, you’re going to have to print it, otherwise it’s worthless. There’s this authenticity of you’ll have a physical thing with you. It existed.

You didn’t manipulate it. It’s difficult to manipulate those things. There’s a little bit of counterculture movement in society right now. The whole notion that we’ve talked about in the past, the effective accelerationism versus the opposite. It’s like there’s a little bit of this notion of some people want to be very technology forward, and some people, like, I want to just stay behind, and I’m happy to do it.

It’s a philosophical movement, as we discussed in that episode. Last but not least, there’s a little bit of the mindfulness of it, of slowing down. I do think that’s pervasive across generations. I do feel myself. I don’t know, Bertrand, how you feel, but I feel myself sometimes just doing something that requires a simpler device, a simpler piece of technology, slows me down, and that’s good because then I appreciate the world a little bit more.

If you don’t have your phone, for example, in front of you, we’ll talk about digital detox later on. But if you don’t have, for example, your phone in front of you, but you have something else, like a basic phone from the past, it’s sort of easier to be connected to stuff around you. It’s like you’re slowing yourself down. You don’t need to be checking stuff all the time. You don’t need to be in parallel processing mode, as I call it, all the time, and I think that sort of slowdown is very, very powerful.

Bertrand

Yes, and I guess you have to separate retro tech from minimal tech or digital detox because one is really going back in time using the tools or technologies we used to use for different reasons, and some, for instance, let’s say film cameras, you. You might be excited to use your expertise on ways to develop a film, and that might be your stuff.

But at the same time, I’m probably more on the minimal tech and digital detox side versus the retro tech per se. Because the retro tech per se, I don’t know, I’m not so sure. Sometimes I feel what does it bring me in the first place? Where being more minimal but with modern tools or products, usually that’s probably more where I’m going. I bought a Fuji X100VI camera.

One of the fun part is to have a film simulation in your camera. This one, you could argue it’s a mix. It’s retro. You can do film simulation at the same time. It’s done in a modern way. It’s a digital film simulation. That’s the part that gets me excited, being in some sort of border the past, but in a modern way.

Nuno

I think there is some type of retro tech that will necessarily take you to minimal tech or a digital detox kind of thing, just because of the nature of tech, because tech was old and therefore limited, and therefore it will lead you to a much more minimal experience. I was mentioning the basic phones of yesteryear, but to your point, you could be focused on digital detox, minimal tech, without necessarily going retro.

You could be using modern devices and other experiences that in some ways emulate things from the past or that create a space for you to be more disconnected at times from always being on, that don’t imply any use of retro techt. Maybe one leads to the other potentially, whereas the other doesn’t necessarily need the first.

Bertrand

Exactly. If you take the phone, it’s a great example. You could try to find an old Motorola flip phone, or you can try to get one of the new phones, like a light phone, two or three, or a minimal phone with e-ink. You already have two approaches on this. I’m probably on the approach of trying to use the latest tech to provide what you get from older technology in a way, but with modern amenities.

Nuno

There are some economic dimensions behind this. Let’s be clear. First, there are the manufacturers from yesteryear. Some of these brands have actually disappeared and have now been regurgitated, almost resuscitated into the market, where it’s like, oh, I can use the brand again, and now I can make money with the stuff we had in the past.

We own the IP, and we can do all these things. We have a lot of that stuff going on. There’s rebooting classics, there’s the refurbishment of old devices. The Walkman, the Sony Walkman, is one of them. Nintendo NES, Classic, there are significant refurbishment businesses around it, where players are going into the market, refurbishing devices and reselling them at actual premiums from when they were bought just to be clear, so there is money being made.

I’m not sure it’s highly scalable across the board unless the brand itself decides to go after that market. But there’s money to be made. There are elements around the technological notion. For example, there are a lot of conversations around vinyl. I mentioned earlier that the quality connection can some ways, be higher fidelity if you have the right setup.

There are a lot of records out there, a lot of vinyl records out there. You want to make money out of them, and they’re special editions. There’s almost like a premium out of it.

Bertrand

That is for sure a premium. Especially in a world where, you know, you pay a 10-bucks subscription to get access to all the music you can get. So for sure, if you buy a vinyl, which is usually just one song, it can be a real business, and surprisingly, actually, you have bigger vinyl sales than CD revenues these days.

Nuno

That’s incredible.

Bertrand

So vinyl has taken over CD. I was shocked to see this metric.

Nuno

It’s still growing. It’s interesting because it doesn’t seem to be going down. There are even some of the music publishers and labels that are like, they’ll continue doing vinyl because they know there’s a market, there’s a premium to that market. You know that it’s the album or the single and all that stuff. But there’s a premium to it that’s very powerful.

Bertrand

Anyways, parallel to another premium market, which is super high resolution, super high fidelity music, you can download. Obviously, this one is not retro tech, but that’s another approach to try to find a super premium market segment.

Nuno

A film camera is obvious. We see Polaroids coming back. Anything that relates to Polaroids to the future films as well, around it, people want to capture that moment the way it is. It’s becoming really cool. Some restaurants are doing it like 3-Michelin-star restaurants that take a photo of you and whatever. So it’s becoming like a cool thing. It’s interesting.

It’s still not very big. The film camera market has gone to dramatic lows, and now it’s going back up. It’s steadily going back up from 223 million to 303 million by 2030. I think those are the estimates. It’s not going to change the world anytime soon. But there are interesting niche markets where you can make some money and scale, and there’s something to that.

Bertrand

Yes, and a refurbishing business. Companies like Retrospect seem to be pretty focused on this. That’s an interesting business for sure. But here we are talking about not like refurbish your iPhone from two, three years ago, but more like your workman from 20 to 30 years ago. It’s a different business that usually will require some special tools, equipment, and access to special components that might be harder to find.

By the way, going back to music, another trend on top of vinyl is to use a tube for your amplifier. That’s another piece of the puzzle. You can see people finding and buying tubes from 50 years ago. You have old stocks of tubes that people try to get their hands on and use. It’s a pretty funny phenomenon. The tubes part, they call it tube rolling. When you warm your tubes far and wide, change tubes from one to another to see the impact on the sound.

Nuno

It’s a back-to-the-future thing. I think we’ll continue seeing a lot of that. We’ve been talking a lot about electronic devices and tech, et cetera, because that’s what we like. But for example, cars are a great example of vintage.

Bertrand

Yes, of course.

Nuno

Where they command stupid prices. The most expensive cars in the world are cars that have been around for decades, Tens of millions of dollars for cars, because they’re still around. There’s been a Ferrari sold at 30-something million. I’m not sure what the most expensive car is right now. I think it’s a Mercedes, an SL, an old one. But they command premiums that are incredible because people want that. There were limited editions back then.

There are very few cars still around. Also, the sense of scarcity at the top end of the market, there’s a sense of scarcity, and people are willing to pay a lot of money for that stuff. That’s more so of maybe the collector logic rather than just retro tech as a mainstream movement. But still, it’s really, really, really powerful. The same with watches as well.

There are a couple of areas that I think the collector piece has really stood out.

Bertrand

When I’m not using one of my digital watches, and using some of my more traditional watches. One of them was made, actually, I think, by Omega for the moon mission. That’s the exact same model that they built with a very slight refresh for like 60 years.

Nuno

Listen to this. The most expensive car ever sold, the 1955 Mercedes-Benz 300 SLR, one of their versions. Do you want to guess how much?

Bertrand

Thirty.

Nuno

A hundred and forty-two million.

Bertrand

That’s ridiculous. Are you sure it’s not money laundering?

Nuno

No, it was 250, the Ferrari 250 GTO Scaglietti that got sold several times, the same car, and the latest time it got sold was 51 million, I think, or 52. The very funny story is that this car was at the Monterey Motorsports Week, and I live in Half Moon Bay, and one of the days I was driving to the Ritz-Carlton Half Moon Bay and I saw this Ferrari there. They put the car in front of the entrance, literally. It was that car. It was that car, and I was like, I hope nobody hits the car, because that’s like 50 million or something. No scratches, please.

Bertrand

Anyway, I wonder how he’s working the insurance.

Nuno

It’s specialty insurance. The interesting thing with these cars is that some of them still get raced. They get sent to, you know, like, Monterey Motorsports Week. They do the Laguna Seca racing, the historics, or the prehistorics, depending on which time you go there. There’s the Goodwood Festival, and they get raced there as well.

Bertrand

It would be sad if you just buy a car that expensive for not racing it. At some point that’s. That’s their raison d’être.

Nuno

I remember, I think it was the Goodwood Festival race, and this was part of a documentary or something. Jean Alesi, the former Formula one driver that used to race for Ferrari, was driving this Ferrari and the owners in the pit lane, and they’re talking to the owners because they’re touching, like they’re scrapping cars and whatever, and Alesi is fighting for the win kind of thing and whatever, and they’re talking to the owner, and it’s like, your car is worth a couple of tens of millions.

He’s like, I don’t care. I just want him to win. Whatever we need to do afterwards, we will. But if he wins, that will matter because now the car has more history to it, it will have won Goodwood as well, et cetera. To your point, I think that’s the right attitude towards these kinds of collector items, et cetera.

Last but not least, on the drivers of economic logic for retro tech, I would highlight, obviously, the sustainability angle. Reusing something that you already had. Minimal tech is probably also true, and minimalism. But I think using something that you already had that’s more retro, if you don’t need something as modern, is a good logic, is well aligned with this notion of sustainability.

The circular economy, selling to someone else, and I’m using something that’s 10 years old or 20 years old instead of buying it new, and always adopting the latest consumer electronics, and being more thoughtful about that.

Bertrand

Yes, definitely. Again, that is just the question of, do you want to go back 20 years or 50 years or just two or three years in time? I guess two or three years might be the most efficient route, to be frank, if you want to be economically rational. Another funny one for people who are missing the BlackBerry style. You can find a BlackBerry keyboard add-on from companies like Clicks Keyboard. You can just plug that as an add-on or as a cover for your iPhone or your Android phone. That’s a fun one.

Nuno

I have one for my iPhone 16 Pro Max. Yes.

Bertrand

Do you use it all the time?

Nuno

I used it, and then I came to the realization that this is the funny thing. I’m faster now writing with the iPhone because the iPhone has become so good with predictive text, et cetera. That I’m much faster just writing on the screen. With clicks, I love it and it enhances it and it’s cool and whatever to have it around. But honestly, I’m faster just on the iPhone itself. That’s how things go. Everyone wanted BlackBerry style, which was just justified by BlackBerry even when the iPhone came out. Now it seems like we don’t need that stuff anymore. The QWERTY keyboard.

Bertrand

You remember, early on, that was a question. People were saying that the phone will never be as fast, there is no way it can match, and blah.

Nuno

We’ve come a long way.

Bertrand

Not even talking about AI coming and just talking to the phone, and there’s no point in using even a virtual keyboard in the first place. That’s an interesting development. One thing I notice when you use this type of keyboard is that it gives back a lot of screen space because, typically, when you are typing on your phone, you suddenly need to display the virtual keyboard.

It’s taking one third potential of your space, and suddenly you see less on your screen, maybe even half of the screen is lost. You get back your screen real estate, and if you spend a lot of time writing, there can be some value there as well. But obviously, you get a bigger phone as well, so it’s a trade-off.

Nuno

Gaming has been retro for a long time. I feel there’s been all these emulators that you can play like ZX Spectrum stuff from way back when on your mobile phone, and now you have the things themselves, the consoles, the Game Boys made a comeback, et cetera. It’s fascinating.

Bertrand

Yes, Nintendo made a special release of some older physical consoles for the new age, but they also did a virtual release. If you have a Nintendo Switch for instance, you have access to a huge library of legacy classic games, as they call them, integrating their own emulators. The work they have done to support their older collection of games, legacy games, is very impressive if you want to have access.

Of course, all the licenses are paid, but yes, you have access very easily to all of this. It’s virtual, it’s not a physical device, but at least you have access to your old stuff if you want. Personally, I don’t know. When I’ve tried to play some of these older games, it has not been such a delightful experience. I guess everyone is different, but I must say, I don’t know so much. Sometimes it’s hard to go back, I would say more than 5, 20 minutes.

Nuno

I totally agree. I feel it’s… How can I say this in a nice way? It’s like you go back, you do it a couple of times, you remind yourself, this is… When I was a kid, I would look like, and then you’re like, “This is really crap.”

Bertrand

Yes.

Nuno

I remember going back, the game that I remember from ZX Spectrum the most was Chuckie Egg, and I remember, which is this platform game where you’re going up and down and whatever, and avoiding being caught. I was like, “I used to play this. This is so cool.” Then after like a couple of minutes of playing, “Yes, this is not very cool.”

Bertrand

Yes, I remember some older games like Juice and others, well, yes, when we play them, it can be.

Nuno

Yes. I guess that’s why we’re in tech, because we want the latest tech, we want to move to the next level and the next layer of evolution. We’re fascinated by that, people like you and me. In some ways, that makes sense. It makes sense. Then, when we played retro games were like, “Yes, no, it’s okay.” I prefer playing Last of Us, the Remastered stuff, and whatever.

Bertrand

If you play a remaster, for instance, it’s a different story that sometimes I like because you play an oldie but a goodie. But it’s refreshed in terms of graphics, in terms of audio, that once in a while I don’t mind. But again, there is so much choice these days that why not just simply go for the latest and best? But once in a while, a remastered edition can be fun.

Nuno

A lot of cool things around this. We’ve talked about games, we’ve talked about emulators, we’ve talked about cameras, Polaroid camcorders, Pentax film bodies, whatever. Fujifilm simulation camera that you mentioned earlier.

Bertrand

One thing on my camera I like, the Fuji X100VI is the fact that you have only, “A 35-millimetre lens”. You cannot switch lens or anything that forces you to use the lens properly. Obviously you have some digital zoom and given it’s a pretty high-density sensor, you can zoom quite well digitally. That’s a fun way to use a camera. I used to bring with me proper DSLR with different lens. At some point the weight of it and everything is just too much. You want an easier life and that’s exactly what it is.

It might be a very recent piece of technology, but in a simpler package, I must say it’s sometimes very enjoyable. It can provide some creative freedom as well. Like the film simulation, very quickly accessible. That sort of stuff that you can do in the moment versus developing later on your computer.

Nuno

We’re trying to create this experience that we know. It’s like the paradigm. We know this paradigm of having a photo and having it in a frame and doing all of that. One of the presents that I’ve had for people that strikes the most of a chord is, for example, Google has this option where you turn some Google Photos and you do some adaptations to it, and you turn it into an actual photo book.

I did one for my mother and for my sister. I have one myself the Christmas where my father passed away and just remembering my father in that photo book. It was physical, and I gave it to them, and it was like there’s something. It’s like it’s physical. You open it and there’s all this stuff there. I couldn’t just send them a Google Drive or send something to their phone. It’s like the reaction would not have been the same.

Bertrand

100%.

Nuno

The physicality which creates a different emotional attachment to it as well, which is very powerful.

Bertrand

As human beings sometimes we are really attached to objects. When you have kids, it’s very interesting to see how they care very carefully about their toys, their books. They don’t want to easily let go of them. There is a physical connection that you don’t have with any digital content at all. It’s totally different.

If you take pictures, we’ll take hundreds. You don’t cherish as much at all. You probably don’t go back to look at them too much either. You know they are there, but it’s not the same as printed pictures in your room, in your home, or in a book. There is still a difference. We will say we have not fully adjusted yet on that part of physical objects.

Nuno

We have not. Where again the emotional connectivity, the authenticity of the device, et cetera, comes together.

Bertrand

What do you think of the trust part, Nino? Do you think that film photos are easier to trust? Do you like to see imperfections?

Nuno

I think they still are, and it’s easier to see the imperfection. Actually the trust part of the equation is quite important as part of the discussion. But it’s going to be difficult to replicate in the future because in the future, how do you know? Everything’s a digital device. Everything can be printed, and before it’s printed it can be manipulated. This only works for the past in some ways. I’m not sure it’s going to work in the future.

Bertrand

Exactly. I was going to say it’s a tough one because whatever someone will show you as being developed, “You don’t know”. It could have started from a physical digital image.

Nuno

No, no. It’s not just spy movies. But we know that some areas of defence and hardcore whatever, where they prefer to use retro check precisely because of that, because it’s harder to fake. Therefore, if I have a microfilm or if I have something else that’s harder to fake, I’d prefer to use an older type of technology that makes it difficult for me to go and do something with it and change it or create some elements to it that were not there in the first place, et cetera. Interestingly enough, there might always be a market, for example, for retro tech and areas like defence and military and intelligence.

Bertrand

For areas like defence or military, maybe there’s another way which is more being focused on read only physical devices. If you can store stuff, I don’t know, in some crystal or stuff that you know cannot be changed easily, or it just stay as it is forever, as long as it’s not touched. There are ways to keep stuff for very long term storage in different ways that might solve some very, very unique needs. Maybe let’s go on moving from retro tech to minimal tech and digital detox.

Nuno

We’ve talked a lot about it. The no phone policies in schools and classes, known phone policies in a couple of other areas. Couples doing that over dinner. There’s no phones at the table. I have to confess, we’re still struggling because I take photos of food. I’ve recently discovered this magical thing called airplane mode, so I just put it in airplane mode and I just take photos whatever. There’s no interruptions, no notifications.

I also use it when I go to mass because I have my… Sometimes I’m following the missilet and I want to follow a couple of things in particular. If I’m in a foreign country, and it’s a different language and all of that, and it’s stored in my device, so I don’t need to have connection to the internet while I’m doing it. There’s a lot of mindfulness in it, there’s a lot of push into it.

Clearly, mobile phones have led to probably the single biggest dramatic shift in tendency to have attention deficit traits, potentially even to attention deficit disorder or hyperactivity disorder of any technology ever. I think mobile phones have been really the largest guilty parties in all of this. Obviously adding the stack of digital services and everything around social media and all of that, but the phones themselves have become the conduit and vessel to it. No phone has become a thing. I think that’s great that no phone has become a thing.

Bertrand

I think it’s a very, very different universe because when we grew up we didn’t have mobile phones at least. Of course, we had phones, but not mobile phones and certainly not smartphones in our pockets. Very different story for kids now. From age 3, 4, kids start to use devices. I think there is real value to limit access to these devices. You need to find a balance as parents. It’s not always easy if you are both working to have the luxury to forbid digital device to your kids all the time.

Nuno

There’s homework, there’s digital stuff being shared with them as well. But I see a lot of people being super mindful around how early do they give their kids their first phone? Secondly, what are the boundary conditions of use of the phone once they have a phone, and what do they use it for? People take away the phones from their kids when they go to sleep and stuff so that there’s no temptation to go back on your phone kind of thing. There’s obviously been all these controlling systems that you control the internet in your home.

Bertrand

Yeah. You need to control the apps available, the website, all of this. It’s very important.

Nuno

It would be wonderful to know your opinion. I’ve known people who are founders of big companies, gaming companies, tech companies, who are super aggressive about giving phones to their kids. They give phones to their kids very late and there’s all sorts of rules. The kids don’t really get to use their phones much, which tells me something. It tells me that they know because of the usage patterns on their own services that this is like drug. It’s like full on drug.

Bertrand

As you say, some have been specialized at optimizing their games for dopamine effects, their games or social services. You want to be careful, you want to provide some sort of dopamine diet. Also, there are big differences between boys and girls. It looks like girls are very, very impacted by social apps and what’s happening online. That might be even more dangerous for them for their safety. That’s something to really keep in mind.

Personally, I think you certainly need to restrict, but at the same time I’m probably on the category of restricting being careful. But at the same time I want my daughter to be digital native as well. I don’t want her to be disconnected. I want her to know how to use a phone, a laptop, a tablet. I don’t want her to wait until being 18 to discover all of this. I think you have no choice.

We are in a digital society. You need to know the tools of the trade of the world. I think it is a balance. I would say I’m more on a careful side, but not overly careful.

Nuno

I think it is always a trade-off in all the mental effects that this can have, like in terms of bullying, mindfulness or lack of mindfulness et cetera, versus the upside, which is you have to be in it. If you’re not in it, you’re left behind. You don’t have access to the latest information, to the latest tools for you to do homework, your things, et cetera. It’s a little bit of a trade off, but it’s still… I mean 62% of 18-29 year-olds are online almost constantly. I’d assume these are US numbers, but probably in many parts of the world it’s similar. It’s incredible.

All of this is leading us to the countermovement. To the countermovement where people want minimalistic experiences, where they want retreats, where they want to do a variety of other things that compensate for that. I have this all the time. Therefore, I want to be in a situation where I don’t have it at all.

Bertrand

Yes. No, no, I think you’re right. Maybe just going back to safety, you could argue it works both ways. The fact that your kids have a phone with them, that can be very important for safety. You know where they are, they can tell you where they are. If there is any issue, they can reach out to you, or they could have a digital watch with GPS. There are ways to actually be safer as a result. But again, like every tool, if you use them the wrong way or too much, it’s a pretty tough issue. You were talking about retreat. You did some retreats yourself and you know.

Nuno

It’s interesting that you mentioned that. I do Catholic retreats once a year. I do a Catholic retreat once a year organized by Opus Dei, and I’ve done maybe like…I haven’t done every year since I was 16, but I’ve done maybe 20 or 21 by now. I have this very hard rule which is when I go into the retreat, it’s normally a three-day thing. Starts on a Thursday evening, it ends on Sunday after lunch.

I want to be focused on prayer, reading books, meditation, going to mass properly. Really being there in my connectivity with God. I always disconnect my phone. It’s the only time of the year that I absolutely disconnect my phone. I disconnect when the retreat starts, I reconnect it when the retreat ends. Everyone knows. My teams know this, I’m off.

I do give them a phone number of the place I’m staying at in case something dramatic happens. Till this day, I’ve never really been called, which is wonderful, but basically I do that. I’ve started realizing this is quite interesting. Now a lot of people that go to the retreats, and most of them are actually older than me, have their phones on them because they have their prayers in it, and they want to whatever, but still the phone is on.

This year it’s very, very funny. I was doing my retreat and a bunch of people came to me. It’s like, “You didn’t use your phone the whole time, you had your phone stashed to where.” I think I was one of the very few who did that. I was like, “Yeah, that’s the only way to go. I really want to be here.” I think maybe I’m starting a movement within retreats that people disconnect their phones when the retreat starts and reconnect it back when they’re done. Which by the way, should be how you do it because it is a silent retreat and all that stuff.

People have prayers on it, and they have all these things, but the phone then is on, unless you have it on airplane mode. Very interesting. Very interesting how the retreat is going through its own cycle as well.

Bertrand

Temptation could be hard if your phone is on, so I can see some value there.

Nuno

It’s a moment of focus. Obviously, there’s other types of retreats, digital detox retreats, where you just go there, and you have to put your phone in a box. You’re forcing yourself to just be fully present. Either it’s longevity kind of thing or wellness kind of thing. Could be religious kind of thing like I mentioned, the Opus Dei retreats, the Jesuit retreats, et cetera. There’s all these things that are happening for you to self reconnect not only at a spiritual level, but also sometimes just disconnect from your phone and just be fully present and be fully there.

Bertrand

Definitely. What about some products and concept for minimal tech, digital detox? I think one trend has been your minimal phone. Maybe not dumb phone, but the phone with only the minimum you need to survive in a way. There has been the Light Phone, there has been the Minimal Phone-

Nuno

The Punkt, they had the basic phones, and now they have a smartphone as well, the Punkt MC02.

Bertrand

Personally, I’m a big fan of E Ink. There are some device with E Ink and you could argue, “Okay, what does it change?” But the fact is that the E Ink is typically not colour, even if it’s coming. But even if it’s colour, it’s really not good colours and the screen refresh is very bad. Basically there are a lot of things that you would really rather not do on an E Ink phone. Even if it’s a smartphone, the second it is E Ink device, you will certainly do less because the experience is not as sleek.

Thanks to E Ink, it’s not sending you lights from the back of your phone. It’s a very different device that is much nicer, I would say, on your eyes than a regular screen. There is that benefit as well. You could argue it’s a health benefit. Personally, I love to just read any E Ink reader before going to bed.

For instance, no alerts, no alarm. I’m blocking all the alerts on the phone. It’s not even with me. I’m just focused on E Ink for 30 minutes before going to bed. That’s my typical routine. That way I don’t have real screen in front of me, I don’t have alerts. I must say that works very well for me to put me in a good state.

Nuno

It does for me as well. I have a pet peeve when it comes to some of these devices. As you know, I collect phones. I have probably 270 phones by now.

Bertrand

You need your Museum.

Nuno

I need to do a museum at some point. If anyone’s listening to this and has some great ideas… I’ve tried negotiating at some point with the Computer History Museum and negotiating as in I was going to donate it, but then there was a bunch of things that needed to be done for it to be donated, and they were not willing to take care of it. I ended up not donating it. But I am still in the market to donate my collection. You guys have any ideas, please do reach out.

Basically, I buy these phones, the phones that are more minimalistic. There’s one type of phone that works really well for me, then there’s another type of phone that I think is just a waste of money. The type of phone that really works well for me, if it’s a basic or feature phone that goes through a re-edition, et cetera.

You may ask, why do you need a basic or feature phone that goes through a re-edition or a new phone if you have the old phones? Well, because bands at some point stop being used. Like in the US, we don’t have 3G bands anymore. You can’t just go to your phone that was a 3G band phone and work it. That’s why, for example, Nokia launched back in the day, this was a couple of years ago, the 3310. The re-edition of the 3310 so it could support LTE. I have that phone, actually. It’s a great phone. It’s a feature phone.

Bertrand

Wow. It is 3310 LTE. 

Nuno

Yeah. It looks like just the original one, but it works on 4G. They changed something, but it works. There’s a couple of other phones that are a lot more dumber phones. Punkt, they’re basic phones, the MPs. The basic phones from Punkt are great phones. Then there’s the devices I don’t quite like. I just got the minimal phone.

I’m not going to diss the minimal phone, although it did take them a bit longer to get the phones out. I’m still playing with it, so I still might change my mind. I don’t want to say there’s anything wrong. It’s an interesting phone. It has E Ink on it. To your point, Bertrand, it’s easier on the eyes, et cetera.

The Punkt MC02, which is the smartphone that Punkt launched, which in principle is improved security, and a couple of other things that are better. Phones like this, the minimal phone, the Punkt MC02, et cetera, the problem I have with them is they’re just like smartphones. How am I going to have a more minimalistic experience with those phones if I’m just transferring?

The first thing they do on the minimal phone is like, “Do you want to basically restore your backup from your previous Android device?” No, I don’t. I don’t want to do that. Can’t you just tell me you have some preloaded apps on it that tell me are the core apps for it and give me a couple of use cases? It feels like nobody’s thought through the user experience of this.

Because surely you could preload stuff on it that you could choose your own path, like I want to use this device as a minimalistic device and I absolutely just need messaging, communication, or I absolutely just need access to browser, or I absolutely just need access to whatever. Surely you could have done that.

Punkt is the same thing. I think there’s been no thinking of it. It’s like a device, and I’m like, “Then why am I paying a premium for this device?” I can buy a better device and just use it for basic apps. I could have literally a cheaper device because I don’t need that much power if I’m not doing any fancy stuff on it. I just put whatever apps I want on it, and that’s my weekend device. Why would I buy a Punkt, for example?

With the minimal, I understand because it’s still E ink. Obviously there’s differentiation to it. But still I’m like, “What are these guys thinking?” It’s shocking to me.

Bertrand

That’s interesting. I must say, I was tempted by the minimal fun, because it’s not only E Ink, but you have a physical keyboard as well. It’s an interesting combo, especially because with E Ink it’s really not fun to type on a keyboard. On a virtual keyboard, I could see a lot of value to combine physical keyboard with E Ink. But yeah, it’s interesting feedback.

Nuno

The Light Phone intrigues me. I’ve never used it, but I felt the Light Phone. When I think the first time I looked at the Light Phone, there was some implied subscription you had to pay for. I don’t like that stuff either because as I said, I switch phones all the time, so I don’t know if that’s still the case. If you still have to get a subscription to use the Light Phone, I think they’re a pre-order on Light Phone 3 now. I don’t know. But basically that was the issue I had with it at the beginning.

Bertrand

Yeah, the Light Phone 2 was with E Ink, but the Light Phone 3 is not E Ink anymore, but it does the camera. Then you go back to okay, what do you need on a weekend phone or a technology Light Phone. For sure, I can see myself. If my phone doesn’t have a camera, that’s an issue. Or it means I have to bring my separate camera and more stuff to bring with me. Question mark when you try to solve this question. The other piece of the puzzle, for instance, if you use WhatsApp, for instance, it won’t work on a Light Phone because Light Phone doesn’t support WhatsApp.

You could argue that you want to limit the number of apps, but where is the perfect limit when we depend on application like WhatsApp? It can be pretty tough to have any device that don’t support WhatsApp, and I’m picking WhatsApp. It could be something else, it could be Messenger. It’s really a question for me. What do you pick and do you really go in that direction? I’m not saying I have an answer, by the way.

Nuno

I’m getting more and more to this notion of very slimmed-down smartphone experience that only has whatever you need when you’re disconnected. If I think about when I’m disconnected, I want to be disconnected from emails for sure, most of the messaging apps, if not all. But there are things I still need to have on the phone. The ability to browse, maybe the ability to look for places because I’m probably just hanging around with my girlfriend or doing something else. There are still things I want on the device.

Obviously, a smartphone is still the right route to go, but surely there’s a more minimalistic way of attacking this in lower-power devices with a user experience that’s a little bit cleaner and all of that. I don’t think the basic and feature phone probably can do the whole job, and so those re-editions wouldn’t be able to solve all the problems.

But at the same time having a full-on smartphone, why? If I have a full-on smartphone, there’s all these things now happening of dual storage on your phone, et cetera, so you can switch around and can use your phone with more limited access on things, et cetera, et cetera. That might be a solution, so it might be software implemented at some point. But I do think that’s a big deal because we keep talking about no phones, et cetera. It’s a big deal that we can sort that out.

Bertrand

For me, it’s funny we talk about this because my favourite phone is Samsung Z Fold. I have a Z Fold 6. Basically, I have the biggest phone you can get, the most crazy phone you can get. Of course, I’m looking for now the triple screen feature phone, the G Fold as it’s rumoured to be.

Nuno

What’s a triple screen, Bertrand? They have three screens?

Bertrand

Yes. It means that instead of having just one hinge, you have two hinges.

Nuno

Because we all needed three screens.

Bertrand

Instead of your 8-inch internal screen, there would be a 10-inch internal screen.

Nuno

Wow! My God, life is never going to be the same.

Bertrand

Dream come true. Your 10-inch phone in your pocket. In that balance, on one side of me wants that minimal E Ink type of phone; on the other hand, I need my 10-inch internal screen as fast as I can get one. Humans are complex.

Nuno

We sometimes make our lives a bit more complex than it should be, I think. That’s my perspective, at least on that.

Bertrand

We are geeks after all, so it’s tough to come back. I must say the minimal fan is interesting to me. Maybe I should buy yours if you don’t like it after all.

Nuno

Yes. The jury is still out. I’m still figuring it out. This is not a negative review on the minimal yet, I’m still playing around.

Bertrand

I also read that they have software issues, and they really need to improve.

Nuno

They did. They had to delay the launch.

Bertrand

We talk about E Ink readers. Personally, I’m a big fan. You could argue that the minimal tech is just too upper regular physical book, or you can see that as a minimal take versus reading on your phone or your tablet, so it’s really a question of perspective and point of view.

Kids device. There has been some trend about devices for kids where you don’t have a screen, you don’t even have Wi-Fi or Bluetooth. You have to connect them with a cable. Basically they are like Boomboxes where you can listen to music, you can listen to audiobooks. In the US, there is a Yoto who is doing that. In France and Europe there is Lunii. Lunii was, I think, the most gifted toys 5 years ago in France. Suddenly every parent wanted to have a no-screen, no Wi-Fi device. I must say it’s quite good.

I bought one for my daughter and she likes it. That’s a great way to say no screen, but hey, you can have something to still enjoy some stories and stuff. An alternative to physical books and to a screen, basically.

Nuno

Shall we talk about what are the key things and further insights that come out of this in terms of how we think through retro tech and minimal tech?

Bertrand

Yeah. I guess all of this shared some shared philosophy, slow/intentional technology. You might believe that quality is more important than quantity. In terms of lead adopters, I don’t know. I have the impression it’s more our generation, Gen X, who is more interested in some of this stuff. I don’t know your take on this or forcing it on others, like our kids.

Nuno

I feel we need to necessarily force it. In particular, when it comes to children. I feel we need to force it in some environments, like in some work environments. Maybe we should tell people you can’t use your phone, or the only thing you should bring is your phone for notes on this, or the only thing you should bring is whatever, your Kindle to read. I think we should frame it for people in that way, and we should be intentional about the use of tech overall and push it.

These are tools, so we should be able to measure them and measure their impact and step back on them and be thoughtful about it and in using them as a way to interact with the world, to use ChatGPT, to use Google, to go and browse things, to be curious, to have your Google Maps or whatever on it and explore.

All of that is very powerful and very positive in the use of these devices, smartphones, and other devices. We should basically do it in a way that is mindful. The same goes for retro tech in the same way. That retro tech has a role, not just the IN Collection thing, but that retro tech has a role in it to be played in terms of interactions between people.

Again, not just in a personal environment, could also be in a professional environment. It creates memories. As we were talking about earlier, there’s an emotional attachment to things that is different than, “I was using my phone. I did that.” No. Remember when I put that vinyl record, and we danced to it, it’s a different experience rather than we dance to Spotify kind of thing.

There’s always these little nuances that I feel we should be very intentional about how we use tech, be it retro tech, minimal tech, or overall tech in general, that we as a society should be thoughtful about and how we share. Those implications are there. There are rules about when you’re on a plane, you can have Wi-Fi, but you can’t do calls because you’re going to bother the people next to you. There’s rules and boundary conditions around what you can do and what you can’t.

Bertrand

The limit is never that clear. For instance, in music and audio production, you have a lot of tools that are digital, but that are simulations of older physical tools. Simulating tape recording, you can adjust your tape to the exact type of tape that was done decades ago. You can emulate a lot of older devices.

One thing I have seen is, in some ways it’s quite interesting because today’s tools can be incredibly complex, sometimes a bit illogical to use, but when you emulate some of these older physical analogue tools, what you discover is that these guys were quite clever who were building these tools. At a time when you had no other choice but to use these tools, you had to be very careful about the UI, about the overall quality, about the simplicity, about the logic of the workflow.

There was a lot of thought that were put into, if I take the world of audio, putting a lot of bang for your buck in a very simple way. That means that when you emulate that today with software, it can have some real benefit of a different approach to making audio or to making music that can be very efficient while providing very good sound.

I’ve seen that. I’m sure there are similar stories in other space. For me, that was an interesting discovery. I’m using quite a bit some of these tools. It’s interesting how well it can be working versus a pure digital native solution.

Nuno

It is a broader sign of things to come. People want devices that are unique, that are personalisable, that are beautiful, that look different. That’s what people are looking for when they sometimes go back in retro tech, to be different, to look special. In some ways, tech, for example, at smartphones, a lot of it’s more or less the same. There’s very few brands that are doing any fundamental design innovation. We want to go back to those days.

Going back in time to retro tech is in some ways showing us that the future needs to be more like that, it needs to be more differentiated, more personalisable, et cetera. It alludes to what’s effectively next for us, not just what was in the past.

There is an element to that piece of the puzzle that is the rich experience, not just in terms of the software experience, but also in terms of the tactile experience, the look at it experience. People notice, they notice that your device is different, they notice that you’re playing Game Boy on the way, whatever, and they’re like, “Wow, I played Game Boy when I was a kid. What is that?”

The noticeability of it, the feeling special, the feeling different is a tremendous part of the equation here, which I do think will need to ripple necessarily on the industrial design frameworks of the future. We need to go back to some things that are distinctive.

Bertrand

To this point, remember the evolution since the iPhone. The evolution has been from that complex device, different buttons stuff, and to just the thinnest possible slab of glass with nothing else. There could be no button, no physical port for charging, just wireless charging. That will be the ultimate device. It’s very interesting how everyone moved into that direction. It makes sense because it’s more solid, you have less points where it can break, you are providing as much screen real estate as possible. There is a lot of logic. It’s very interesting because in some ways it feels like that ultimate device that can go only in one direction, one form factor, one design.

As you say, as a result, everyone has the same stuff. Even if you have a Samsung phone, it looks the same as an iPhone. Us looking for something different, something unique, can make a lot of sense. All of this as business and brand applications, should you revive some older brands? Should you acquire their rights? We have seen quite a lot happening, for instance, Atari console being revived or trying to be revived. You have these limited editions, minimalist mode, so you have a lot of options. I think in terms of branding, there is always a question of real market size, to be frank, because when you compare the market size of the iPhone to a new type of phone, it’s a tough one.

Nuno

Some of these businesses might not be venture investable. They might be interesting businesses that you build and take to the next level, but it’s not going to be 10, 100x returns for investors. Even the fact that you have all these things, the collectibles, the watches, the cars, the mobile devices, some of this might be worth quite a bit in some years. In some ways, should I get rid of it? Maybe if you’re not going to keep them properly taken care of. Maybe you should create a museum, like you were saying, for my phones. Again, there’s value in a lot of the retro stuff, in particular, and so you can definitely leverage it economically.

Bertrand

Some of them you can argue. There is a real beauty. If you take some older cars or a nice watch, each time you look at your digital watch, it’s plain ugly, usually in comparison to a nice proper watch from a proper band. If you want something that looks just nice while being somewhat useful, at least it’s giving you time. You cannot beat a proper analogue watch. Impossible.

Nuno

In some ways, it’s very interesting that, for example, the phones that people notice the most when I have them is actually the Red Magic Nubias, which are gaming phones, I think it’s for cooling effects in the back, they have a bunch of colours, et cetera, but for cooling effects, they have an actual fan. Everyone noticed that those mobile phones, they’re like, “What is that?” “This is a gaming phone.” “That’s a gaming phone?” I was like, “Yeah.” “Is that like a fan?” I like, “Yeah.” “Cool.” “There’s colors on it when you’re playing and stuff.” “Yeah.” “That’s very cool.” Then people start noticing, and this is actually a mix of the future and the past, retro tech with fans.

Bertrand

I don’t know if fans are retro tech. If you have any gaming PC, you know that you buy multiple fans, you have to make sure that they are super strong.

Nuno

But there’s other cooling stuff out there?

Bertrand

I can tell you I have water cooling on my CPU, but I still have multiple fans to extract the heat. No, if you’re into hardcore PC gaming, you realise that’s the only way to go actually, if you are serious about it. If you are just for the fun, it’s okay. One thing I’ve never gone into is also trend around lighting and stuff. I don’t see the real need, but everyone is different.

Nuno

Everyone is different, yeah, maybe a bit too flashy.

In conclusion, we have these movements that have happened around intentionality, that have happened around work-life balance, that have happened around mindfulness, mental health, et cetera, that have taken the tech pendulum to go a little bit back in time. Not just retro tech, but also the use of minimal tech in your day-to-day activities, and also in your weekend activities.

People are so always on that they want to actually be off, and therefore they’re using for tech pieces and tech devices that will lead them that way. This is here to stay. We don’t think that this is a fad. It’s here to stay. We will always have retro tech and minimal tech, even going forward.

In some ways, it’s showing the broader appeal on how we’re moving. The design interpretation and the language, I think, will take us to the next level. It’s a little bit of precedent to what’s happening next for us as a society. Finally, last but not the least, what I would leave with you all is if you think you have something that’s really, really cool and old, go and Google it. See maybe if it has some value, and you might get to some interesting conclusions, that there’s maybe that old phone that you have in your box that somehow still works. Actually, it might be worth a lot more than you thought it was.

Bertrand

Definitely.

Nuno

Thank you, Bertrand.

Bertrand

Thank you, Nino.